I think I really was only positing one thing throughout this entire blog – and that is, Mal was right. Cobb is dreaming actually dreaming. All the rest is semantics. Are there actually 7 layers? No probably not… because Limbo isn’t a layer. And also because Cobb’s Limbo and Saito’s Limbo should be the same. But seven is so much snappier concept to sell than 5. heheh. It is the perfect number. Just saying.

Thanks for writing SEO!
Taylor

As Nolan has said in various interviews, without the ambiguity (and the final cut on Cobb’s spinning top is a good example) the movie would be more simplistic and not nearly so powerful. Thanks Taylor for taking the time to share your thoughts, and providing a forum for fans to communicate and puzzle through the layers of ambiguity together.

so to me he is actually awake in the end. i guess it is all up to the watcher. i really hope inception 2 isn’t going to be corny

I’m not sure how it’s possible for everything to be a dream, because if you kill yourself in limbo, and you are the dreamer for each level, don’t you wake up completely?

We’ve discussed this in varying levels of detail throughout the comments of this and a few of the other posts about Inception on the blog. Here’s the problem – we are told one reality, then Cobb tells us another and finally we see a third.

The first time Cobb explains it he explains that when you die your mind wakes you up and voila you are back at the surface. But in this discussion during the heist we get a very different perspective:

Eames: “I’m going to put him out of his misery.”
Cobb: “Don’t do that. Don’t do that.”
Eames: “He’s in agony I’m waking him up.”
Cobb: “It won’t wake him up.”
Eames: “What do you mean it won’t wake him up?”
Cobb: “It won’t wake him up.
Eames: “When we die in a dream we wake up.”
Yosuf: “Not from this. We’re too heavily sedated to wake up that way.”
Eames: “Right, so what happens when we die?”
Cobb: “We drop into limbo.”

And then finally, we are shown a third perspective. Remember when Ariadne jumped from the building in Limbo? Where did she wake up? At the ice fortress, ready to follow the kicks all the way to the surface. She didn’t wake up on the plane. Right? You have to watch it closely… over. And over. And over. Again. Its very clear though. Nothing ambiguous.

So to answer your question – no, not necessarily. The movie showed us Cobb & Ariadne dying under the train and then waking up in their living room. (Did we miss any intervening levels?? Or kicks in that process? Maybe.) And then we see Ariadne’s path out of Limbo. Two totally different perspectives. I personally think that it moves the dreamer a layer at a time. But that’s just me.

Also, about the theory that everything after Cobb’s sedation in Yusuf’s lab, then he would have been dreaming within dreaming himself which makes the dream extremely unstable. Yet the movie’s reality seems very stable, though he really may be sleeping up above with Mal by his bedside trying to shake him awake.

I can understand this perspective and like it intellectually as it stands up, but it definitely isn’t my opinion. But in regards to a dream within a dream being unstable… we don’t really start seeing instability until much deeper down than two. And I’m of the mind there are kinds of tips that he’s dreaming at layer 1 (or layer zero depending on your opinion).

Lastly, if everything is a dream, then how is it that his projections aren’t after him consantly (please exclude Cobol) in Paris, on the Airplane, etc?

I love that. BESIDES ALL THIS EVIDENCE… please explain how it possibly could be! hahah. Mal explained it best when she incredulously asked if he thought it could possibly be real. But, that is using evidence you told me not to use. What about the shrinking alley way? Or the paranoia? The dream machine itself is pretty silly fantastical itself! haha. That alone proves its a dream. But now I’m beginning to point out that we are watching a movie! heheh. Which we are.

Here’s a theory. Cobb is sitting next to you in the movie theater. Layer Zero. And nods asleep. Wakes up in the movie you two are watching together at layer 1. Voila! hahaha. Sorry, I merely jest.

Also, about the theory that everything after Cobb’s sedation in Yusuf’s lab, then he would have been dreaming within dreaming himself which makes the dream extremely unstable. Yet the movie’s reality seems very stable, though he really may be sleeping up above with Mal by his bedside trying to shake him awake.

Lastly, if everything is a dream, then how is it that his projections aren’t after him consantly (please exclude Cobol) in Paris, on the Airplane, etc?

Thank you!

So my only logical explanation was that she was being sarcastic. “so… Do the kids MISS me…?” But it wasn’t overtly sarcastic in the delivery except that if he knew her one desire was to get him to join her up a level (suicide for him, ultimate reality for her) and she asks about the children he knows what she’s doing. He hasn’t seen them, they might as well be phantasms for all he knows. Thus his response – dude, no idea… – I can only imagine. This actually comes up as an issue in Limbo when she tries to get him to look at their faces while in limbo. But ultimately my only a swear here is a deeply layered sarcasm. “So how’s is ‘reality’ thing working out for ya? Kids doim well? Oh ya. They are projections and you haven’t even seen them to know. Right. I forgot.”

As for her coming off as an evil projection – exasperated is the more appropriate word here. She’s gone off the deep end tryIng to convince him to join her. But yes, I agree… There are times she does. But she is also aware in dream that it just doesn’t matter. The politeness, the social bits… It just doesn’t really matter when you are dealing with fiction. But you are are right she definitely does come off that way. Regardless.

As for Primer, epic movie. Just know, that the moment you start the movie … Before anything happens on screen… You are already behind… You are already irretrievably lost! Heheh. Brilliant move. I intend to write up my own theory on that one, just haven’t taken the time to tackle it and put it on paper. Love to hear your thoughts over on that post once you’ve watched it.

Thanks for swinging overe here too! Until next time.
Taylor

Anywho, there was a question that someone already asked earlier that I feel was never really addressed and it dissapointed me. But in the beginning of the movie when they are in Saito’s dream, Cobb is once again confronted with Mal, where she says to him “Tell me, do the children still miss me?” If she was awake and was trying to help Cobb wake up in reality, then why does she ask this question–and with such sincerity?

Someone else also said something that I agree with as well–If your “Mal’s in Reality” theory is true–(which never even occured to me, I was actually fascinated when I read it! )– then all of her attempts to get him to realize this were just plain awful and seemingly gave her the cognitive abilities equal to that of a 5 year-old. She did nothing but make herself look like an evil projection! She certainly did not act as though she was trying to help him.

Also, I’m so happy you created that Top 5 mind bending movies list. You rightfully guessed that I have indeed never heard of Primer, and now I am dyingggg to watch it. And so I will. That is all.

Mal forced a kick on Cobb right after she jumped off that building – if she was indeed “dreaming” and woke up after “dying”.

[quote]To her credit, she tried her best to force him to join her.[/quote] If I am to entertain your idea that Mal is awake and Cobb is still dreaming, I don’t think I agree to the fact that she tried hard enough. ‘Cause if she did, I guess it would be utterly stupid for her not to try to wake Cobb up after the moment she “died” when in fact, she was the one who had the utmost desire to “wake them both up”.

Your interpretations are creative and excellent and I would also support these if not for the tiny, logical detail that simply supersedes everything. Let us not complicate things further and we’ll simply assume two scenarios:

(1) Mal is alive.

The most logical thing for her to do is wake Cobb up. All she needs is a few seconds to a few minutes to force a kick on Cobb right after “dying”. Cobb may still be seen mourning for hours because of his “wife’s death” and I don’t see any technical, let alone, logical reason why he would not wake up in a few more hours knowing the fact that Mal has the capacity to wake him up.

In all honesty, I would say it (“Inception”) has a bad script if Mal would not have, at least, taken the liberty of freeing Cobb from the agony she caused by letting him see her jump off a building. She left Cobb into thinking that he just lost his wife. Personally, I would never do that to my wife. I don’t think any sane person would.

(2) Mal is dead materializing every now and then from Cobb’s subconsciousness in dreams.

Well… nothing to say really. The moment we entertain the fact that Mal is already dead, the movie begins… and continues.

layers only exist in a dream,and if it is reality there can’t be layer zero,it does make a big difference.

Yes, I understand. I was basically saying it didn’t matter if you agreed with me or not – that the reality of the movie was actually layer 1. I was pitching that aside for a moment. I understand.

this thing you mentioned that you need a kick from layer 2 to get out of layer 3 just works IN a dream.you can also kick someone in reality to wake them up no matter in which layer they are,maybe except Limbo.

So, at first blush it would seem you are correct. But after looking at it deeper you will realize this isn’t the case. Let’s listen to Cobb as he explains how the kicks work:

Arthur – “So once we’ve made the plant, how do we get out? I’m hoping you have something more elegant in mind than shooting me in the head.”
Cobb – “A kick.”
Ariadne – “What’s a kick?”
Eames – “This, Ariadne, would be a kick…” [tips Arthur’s chair]
Cobb – “It’s that feeling of falling you get that jolts you awake. Snaps you out of the dream.”
Arthur – “Are we going to feel a kick with this kind of sedation?”
Yusuf – “That’s the clever part, I customized the sedative to leave inner ear function unimpaired. That way, however deep the sleep, the sleeper still feels falling. Or tipping.”

Right? Totally supports your thought that a kick can go all the way to the bottom layer. But, as they continue talking you realize that this isn’t the case. Here’s the continuation of that quote:

Cobb – “The trick is to synchronize a kick that can penetrate all three levels.”
Arthur – “We could use the musical countdown to synchronize the kicks.”

kickS. Plural kicks. Down the layers. So the sedative allows subsequent kicks to flow from layer to layer. Not that it allows a kick to go to the bottom and back to the top. If that were the case then the movie would be a lot simpler. The van drop would have pulled them all the way to layer one. Or better yet, they would have just had someone standing next to them to kick them on back to the plane. But we NEVER see an example of a kick from “Reality” moving more than one layer… always to and from the first dream layer. If I’m wrong on this one I would love to be reminded.

My logical thinking leads to the fact that she would never leave him behind,because if you love someone you would do anything that he believes you,no matter what.Jumping out of a window with, in my mind, you believe that it will wake you up and just hoping for my partner to follow me,is just stupid.Even if she woke up,she would go back to get him out!So she must have really died.

Except that Cobb shoved the desire to get to the surface by incepting the idea of the dream. Cobb accidentally gave Mal the desire to get to the surface – and so she tried her best to suppress the truth and stick it out with Cobb. But ultimately she couldn’t live the lie anymore. To her credit, she tried her best to force him to join her. Manipulative, yes. But if she was right and desired him to know the truth as well it was for Cobb’s benefit that she draw up the legal documents proving her sanity and corner him in effect.

Just something aside,if you were in limbo and i knew that and i am in reality,i would throw you into a bathtub and press your head under water,your instinct would tell you what’s wrong and wake you up,before you die.

I definitely disagree with this. And there are a pile of reasons. Do you remember when they were discussing Saito dying in a dream that deeply embedded – Cobb states that when he awakens he’d be a vegetable.

Ariadne: “And if he dies?”
Cobb: “Worst case scenerio, when he wakes up his mind is completely gone.”
Saito: “I Will still honor the arrangement.”
Cobb: “I appreciate that but when you wake up you won’t even remember we had an arrangement. Limbo’s going to become your reality. You are going to be lost done there so long you are going to become an old man…”

Now, that isn’t specifically what you are referring to, but if someone is that deeply embedded in a dream, you have to kick all the way to the surface in order to be there and ready for the kick that will bring you to reality. Thus all the work to get the timing of the music. The timing of the kicks. The timing of everything was so very critical. Otherwise, they could have just let the dream machine wake them up and gone about arriving in LA without any stress or worry. Half of the movie is embedded in this assumption on how the kicks work. You take away this assumption and most of the movie is superfluous and unnecessary.

My two cents. Now, obviously I think that Mal accidentally committing suicide is tragic and deeply moving. That Cobb caused his own wife’s death by trying to save her is brilliant. I understand. But I also think there is an even deeper irony possible if Mal actually has the truth and Cobb has given it to her. And she is simply acting out this truth… and Cobb is the one who is hopelessly lost in limbo and only believes he is awake. Both are good interpretations. I just think the latter is even more elegant.